tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post8195577360986767976..comments2023-11-06T11:54:31.103+11:00Comments on Neos Osmos: The violence that dare not speak its nameIan Sysonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-46393676653207713482016-04-02T11:48:07.951+11:002016-04-02T11:48:07.951+11:00I appreciate your comment. There are some errors o...I appreciate your comment. There are some errors of fact and problems of interpretation in it though. Soccer is called soccer after ww1 for a start. And the NSL was not a hotbed of ethnic violence. One punch up (between Knights supporters) in the 50 or so games I attended does not a bed of violence make. There were some cases of ethnic hatred exacerbated by contemporary tensions. But these were a tiny fraction of the games played in the NSL.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-45445869094809339892016-04-02T08:49:02.498+11:002016-04-02T08:49:02.498+11:00There's idiotic random violence (often alcohol...There's idiotic random violence (often alcohol fuelled). In the AFL in Melbourne in particular we have seen the move from the early '80s of scattered suburban grounds trying to cram in 20-30,000 fans with dodgy facilities, and the last vestiges of the classic suburban rivalries (granted some of these might have the old catholic v protestant roots) - to now a ground rationalised scenario with the MCG run by the MCC and Etihad run by private operators, the AFL works with the operators and security and crowd control, alcohol serving and a variety of other measures has created a very much more secure spectator experience - heck, there's not even umbrellas allowed inside the MCG!! Publishing references to events of 1924 or even 1992 are pretty well out of date.<br /><br />However - in contrast to soccer - the media interest was lured via repeated action in the old NSL days. That action being based on ethnic rivalries (rather than suburban). And these tensions were very real. Pre WWII soccer was 'British Association Football'. After WWII it became W@gball. Now my parents came out in the '50s from Northern Europe. Some Australians were more welcoming than others however also some 'new Australians' were more open to welcome than others. <br />The tensions of the time would be reflected through sports. Ethnic based soccer clubs became key bastions for minorities (Sth Melb Hellas, Sunshine George Cross, Melbourne Croatia etc). The violence that often erupted around these was more serious than simple idiots on beer. Ethnic tensions within Australia challenged Australian sense of identity. Of course it would be reported upon.<br />So serious a load of baggage that the NSL eventually got disbanded and via intervention of federal Govt we saw the FFA est'd and the A-League 'created'. There remains a media 'reflex'. And the active supporter groups who tend to model themselves on European examples are suspected as being their own 'ethnic enclaves' within the 'clean' visage of the HAL.<br />Then of course there are the flares. These are dangerous, illegal and not seen (in such regularity) in any other sport in Australia (other than the Syd-Hobart yacht race).<br /><br />It's taken until recent months - it seems - for the message to start getting through both to the FFA and to the supporter groups. The level of resistance and defense of the indefendable by soccer keyboard warriors would so often loose sight of the real issue and engage in juvenile race to the bottom. The examples of trying to compare the number of evictions from a 20,000 crowd at a 90 min soccer match to 75,000 at the MCG on Boxing day spending about 6-8 hours in the venue. Trying to compare evictions when at the cricket people would be evicted for relatively minor 'offences' such as starting a Mexican wave, smuggling in alcohol, and beach balls (not flares) would be seen as the item to prohibit. (last time I looked beach balls are not illegal).<br /><br />It's this misguided defending of the faith the riles so many supporters of other codes. The blame game by these soccer keyboard warriors is deflection 101. Acceptance of responsibility and culpability not being acknowledged as the very thin skinned defence would seek to do anything other than acknowledge that flares just should not be seen anywhere near a public sporting crowd.<br />The irony in Australia is that from pretty well the late 1870s on there has been 'football code wars' through the media by keyboard warriors. That's about 140 years of it. That at least is healthier an obsession than ethnic based sports and violence. However - even that sporting rivalry had it's exposure during the FFA's poorly made FIFA WC bid in 2009 that saw F.Lowy seek to engage a Govt bulldozer to plough through the AFL and NRL in particular. Thankfully that failed however - soccer has covered itself in glory and code (not the local hack players) has earned some new enemies who may have been ambivalent otherwise.Michael Christiansennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-35667815723718605022015-05-19T07:36:19.281+10:002015-05-19T07:36:19.281+10:00Not always, not regularly, but occasionally I get ...Not always, not regularly, but occasionally I get fired up when I see the hypocrisy in the media. Indeed, I have spent the last year of my research looking closely at the Anglo-Celtic aspect of Australian soccer history and have ignored the violence issue. Your comment about the Labor hack judge is poorly made and possibly defamatory. I have as you say 'looked her up' and I think that the article criticising her is a disgraceful piece of gutter jornalism.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-78326082196310530702015-05-19T07:35:09.751+10:002015-05-19T07:35:09.751+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-68106518935191960432015-05-19T01:21:04.064+10:002015-05-19T01:21:04.064+10:00the other thing i'd add is that i think the re...the other thing i'd add is that i think the real issue facing ALL sports, isnt policing inside the stadium but around it. there seems to be more issues of violence occurring outside it now. similar to alcohol related violence in venues, when they started to control that and ban patrons it started to shift outside the venuesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-89743811978327297112015-05-19T00:42:29.778+10:002015-05-19T00:42:29.778+10:00I am- like many Australians- a follower of many sp...I am- like many Australians- a follower of many sports . <br />Yes there has been crowd violence in many sports over the years -although perhaps by international standards perhaps not excessively so <br />However <br />While the administration in all sports always condemn such violence there alsoseems to be plenty of apologists for such behaviour in the soccer ( or is it sockah these days ? ) community even it appears by newly appointed Labor hack Supreme Court judges .( look her up )<br />The identification with criminality ( terrorism ? ) with balaclava wearing and the whole angry man syndrome baiting rival gangs -sorry fans - is something unknown in other sports in this country in any organised way ( although I understand it is pretty common in outlaw bikie gangs )<br />For what it's worth I enjoy this blog but really wish that you would stop being an apologist for criminality by always ( well regularly ) gong on about how those nasty racist hypocritical Anglo -Celts are far worse and by the way so unworldly and provincial<br />Methinks you protest too much on this subject Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-45113384309481789792015-05-18T21:48:32.162+10:002015-05-18T21:48:32.162+10:00Thanks for the comment. I largely agree with you a...Thanks for the comment. I largely agree with you about the afl being more proactive in relation to this issue and that soccer does have this cancer in its fan base that needs to be cut out. I guess I'm not as confident as you are about the reduction of violence at the footy. Nor do I think the problem of violence at the soccer is a large as you suggest. I attend 2-3 games of soccer a week and I see little aggro and violence. <br />But I will think on this and give a further more considered reply. Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-14257578444365534112015-05-18T21:31:29.514+10:002015-05-18T21:31:29.514+10:00Thanks unknown. These are certainly the kind of in...Thanks unknown. These are certainly the kind of incidents I mean. While they are not representative of the vast majority of footy fans they happen more frequently than comfort would allow. Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-80688136794630763712015-05-18T21:03:47.994+10:002015-05-18T21:03:47.994+10:00Until 2008 I used to stand at Kardinia Park. Not ...Until 2008 I used to stand at Kardinia Park. Not anymore. I saw 4 violent crowd incidents in the previous 5 years in the standing area at KP. Blood spilt, spectators thrown out, not a word in the compliant media.These are not an isolated incidents. I can talk about many more I witnessed as a kid at Victoria Park and once at the Western Ova. In the early 1980's a Carlton supporter was killed at a (then VFL) match. Crowd violence leading to death, yes it happens at the VFL/AFL.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16556601068099620530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-80698130510432492452015-05-18T20:03:55.438+10:002015-05-18T20:03:55.438+10:00i think the real issue for neutrals like myself is...i think the real issue for neutrals like myself is how the governing bodies of the two sports handle the issue. like you alluded too, this is an ongoing issue in all forms of sport. its how people address the issue, that counts. AFL to State Leagues and right down to community sport are going out of their way to implementing a zero tolerance approach. this has been drummed into supporters of AFL for sometime, to where people are not tolerating racism/sexism/homophobia etc nor do they tolerate violence. this is demonstrated by footage over the weekend of AFL supporters breaking up fights between different supporters. the clear majority of AFL supporters do not tolerate it and do not want it at their game. Also demonstrated by spectator/player life bans or club participation bans off the back of violence in the game<br /><br />which brings me to A League and the FFA. they do not seem to want to tackle the problem, as it cuts to the core of their fan base and active areas that provide the colour and atmosphere that attracts people to their games. they seem to be conflicted on the issue. nothing is being done to address flares within stadia, that has seen 2 children burnt in one season. in the last month, others have been hurt by active areas throwing seats and full water bottles from the stands. nothing is being done to address crowd behaviour outside of the stadium, that has seen flares being thrown at families and patrons exiting the venue. Even albeit it a small minority of active area supporters are now calling on their supporter groups to address the issue and complaining of not wanting to really tackle the problem. When pushed on it they highlight that it is a venue security/state police issue. Yet they are also the first to complain about increased police presence, or really any police presence at all. Ive never heard of another sports supporters complaining about police presence<br /><br />the growing concern is that there seems to be more and more instances of opposing active groups looking to find each other out and engage in violence. for instance its well known that WSW is not a venue you hang around in opposing club colours. on the weekend, the pre-game of both active groups was carefully scheduled at two different locations with police monitoring both as they entered the stadium. After the game the police had to keep opposing supporters in their after match venue until they had cleared the area from home team supporters seeking to attack the away group (one was arrested and move on notices were issued). There have been other examples including a riot but the point is these actions are not condemned enough and are defended as media vilification or a bit of harmless fun<br /><br />i've yet to see any of the above occur in another sport in Australia in the last 20 years. i've never heard of supporter groups having to be segregated like that and if that was an issue you'd bet the AFL would be investing millions to change the behaviour. i mean they change their own rules of the game, to avoid physical contact as to not shy "mums" away from the game out of fear of their child being hurt. Families are the priority of the AFL, I’m not sure you can say the same for the FFA/A league<br />Address The Issue Not Finger Pointnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-9480235523190022142013-05-14T12:06:40.161+10:002013-05-14T12:06:40.161+10:00Australian football and violence is an interesting...Australian football and violence is an interesting topic. Before I comment I love both codes and play australian football - usually in a violent manner....<br /><br />I was at a SANFL in 2000 where a Central District supporter ran onto the ground at 3/4 time and assaulted a Woodville-West Torrens Player. In the South Australian Amateur FL they are implementing a zero tolerance due to an increase in violence.<br /><br />An american study (sorry cant provide the reference atm) theorised that there was an element of aggressive behaviour at aggressive sports (College Football was the case study). Add to this theories of group dynamics and diffused responsibility I believe it is extremely likely that violence is common in most forms of football crowds.<br /><br />Interestingly Scotland has had excellent record of reducing violence for an array of reasons - not least reducing alcohol consumption. The SFL/SFA took matter seriously long before other nations.<br /><br />James H<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-71092782070028564962013-04-11T19:44:27.402+10:002013-04-11T19:44:27.402+10:00the initial 'Anonymous' poster is what in ...the initial 'Anonymous' poster is what in common parlance is referred to as a douchebag :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-8755447459126888522013-03-07T17:17:45.280+11:002013-03-07T17:17:45.280+11:00Maybe I'm wrong to see anything as clear as a ...Maybe I'm wrong to see anything as clear as a pattern but the violence happens more often than the standard narrative allows.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-16817704926357309282013-03-07T17:09:36.736+11:002013-03-07T17:09:36.736+11:00Thanks gigs I think the deeper point is that ther...Thanks gigs I think the deeper point is that there are historical patterns of behaviour that shift. At one point in Melb we had the kind of violence that was similar in kind to the violence we associate with English soccer, ie gangs fighting outside grounds in a planned and co-ordinated way. Footy has lost that but I argue that any sport that relies on identification, passion and physicality always has the potential to erupt in spectator violence of the limited, controlled kind that we see often enough at the AFL level today. Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-76868872082015249732013-03-07T16:01:39.083+11:002013-03-07T16:01:39.083+11:00It's a shame Anonymous resorted to personal ab...It's a shame Anonymous resorted to personal abuse because he/she appeared to otherwise raise possibly valid questions, such as what constitutes a pattern and how is "rare" defined. <br /><br />As an unabashed Australian Rules fan, my initial reaction was to ask: what was the point of highlighting these instances of violence? But my suspicion is that you are trying to demonstrate that this is what some sections of the media are doing to soccer. If that's the case, then I think it's a point well made.<br /><br />I'd prefer not to see such violence associated with a particular code or sport unless their is an absolute need to do so as part of demonstrating a correlation.<br /><br />I think your response - "you are starting to perhaps get some insight into how soccer fans feel when their game is described unfairly by the media" - to our abuser who hides behind anonymity, is a valid one.Gigshttp://australianfootball.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-64792391743597296872013-03-06T10:53:19.754+11:002013-03-06T10:53:19.754+11:00Our anonymous troll is keeping it up. The abuse is...Our anonymous troll is keeping it up. The abuse is worsening and seems even more personal. I won't be reading or publishing any more of it. <br /><br />I hope some footy fans can come on and disagree with me without resorting to abuse. I'm a polemicist and there will always be moments in my arguments that invite legitimate criticism. Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-37850803986305527762013-03-05T17:27:59.831+11:002013-03-05T17:27:59.831+11:00"it appears to me that you are some sort of h..."it appears to me that you are some sort of high grade troll" <br /><br /> This guy is abusive, doesn't disclose his name and calls you a 'troll' BWAHH HA HA HA HA!!!!!!! Quick get that black kettle!!!!!Gweedshttp://accidentalaussie.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-50153347217475793442013-03-05T01:23:26.290+11:002013-03-05T01:23:26.290+11:00If anonymous is truly a representative member of t...If anonymous is truly a representative member of the AFL support, it is a bit of a concern! His overuse of profanity indicates a limited vocabulary, and the chip on his shoulder is clearly enormous.TheScottishRangerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11235806487242078954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-48874094582071697142013-03-04T21:26:31.702+11:002013-03-04T21:26:31.702+11:00Haha. Hadn't occurred to me Bruce. Maybe. Conv...Haha. Hadn't occurred to me Bruce. Maybe. Convince me and I'll publish the latest effort.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-43553264103421558282013-03-04T21:19:25.305+11:002013-03-04T21:19:25.305+11:00LOL. Classic. Do you think he was for real, or a p...LOL. Classic. Do you think he was for real, or a parody? The best parodies are the ones you can't tell if they're taking the piss or serious. If you are a sane man taking the piss 'anon' I tip me hat to you.Brucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-91698567602783037042013-03-04T20:46:27.208+11:002013-03-04T20:46:27.208+11:00Just in case anyone is under the illusion that thi...Just in case anyone is under the illusion that this is a site of academic rigour and objectivity: it's not. It's a place where I get to riff on my obsessions and biases - and I have a few.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-91333874633119541832013-03-04T18:48:23.941+11:002013-03-04T18:48:23.941+11:00It's a good thing that anonymous is not a foot...It's a good thing that anonymous is not a football fan or his head would probably exploded many years ago from all the one eyed Australian media reporting. <br />Best for him to stick to AFL, the aggressive aspect of the sport seems well suited to his aggressive personality.Richardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-83638786265648968212013-03-04T18:36:21.700+11:002013-03-04T18:36:21.700+11:00Sigh. I've let this one through as well. Large...Sigh. I've let this one through as well. Largely because you are digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. You are so angry that you are both irrational and increasingly abusive. Moreover, you look like a coward who is hiding behind your anonymity. <br /><br />Rare. I would say things that happened once in a blue moon like floods in Brisbane or violent deaths in footy crowds (only two in one hundred years). Things that occur monthly are not rare, even while they are uncommon.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-86259775690786174462013-03-04T17:36:33.398+11:002013-03-04T17:36:33.398+11:00No, it is not a misunderstanding, you are wrong, t...No, it is not a misunderstanding, you are wrong, thousands upon thousands of football games, and you have a miniscule of articles and no doubt all to a varying degrees of what can be interpreted as violence .... thats rare in anybodys language.<br /><br />Apparently language can also be violent to you, so god only knows what you consider crowd violence to incorporate, and of course how low you will stoop to run down Australian football, which is a very long way i suspect.<br /><br />The more i have read your site, seen through the smarmy use of language and tiny little sniper shots at football, it appears to me that you are some sort of high grade troll, i guess all that public money that paid for your education was not wasted after all !!. <br /><br />And here's some more violent language that initially you were interested by, but now apparently i am not allowed to use.<br /><br />I actually feel sorry for you, beause you are a pitiful little cunt, and yes, you get the language you deserve.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3782415769184117544.post-73921427375127401322013-03-04T17:09:34.930+11:002013-03-04T17:09:34.930+11:00Keep it coming mate because every post you send wi...Keep it coming mate because every post you send will prove my point. You don't seem to understand that language also can be violent. And that suggests that you wouldn't recognise violence when it was biting you on the backside.<br /><br />You and I have a difference of understanding about the meaning of 'rare'. Fair enough. I've put up about 80 examples (out of hundreds of examples) of footy crowd violence covering 100 years. To me that suggests violence is not rare but is out of the ordinary.<br /><br />In any case an argument about the meaning of a term is less significant that the substance of the piece and that is footy crowds have been a site of violent behaviour for over 100 years. You can't wish that fact away.<br /><br />One thing: you are starting to perhaps get some insight into how soccer fans feel when their game is described unfairly by the media.<br /><br />Keep your language decent if you want to engage in a discussion.Ian Sysonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14381094556560006623noreply@blogger.com